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  Redjeb Jordania on the left and Vakhtang Jordania on the right

Redjeb Jordania Conversation Part 2

With Dana Paul Perna

Now, back to our conversation — that's part two — between Redjeb Jordania and Dana Paul Perna. (One note of clarification from part one: the 14 timpani does not refer to the number of timpani drums, rather to the size of a timpani's skin, that being 14 inches. Redjeb's 
Concerto Classico for Percussion and Symphonic Winds in D major, after all, is performable by one percussionist.

DPP: So, I am still wondering why your last name?

RJ: Oh, so, these Italian brothers were all named Giordano.

DPP: Oh, yeah —

DPP and RJ: a common name in Italy —

RJ: so Vakhtang and me are Jordania as in Giordano —

DPP: — but Georgian —

RJ: That's right: one brother went to one province so the descendants from that area are from that guy, the other was granted a domain and all the descendants who come from that region are from that guy.

DPP: That makes sense. And another person you worked with was Honegger.

RJ: In France, I knew very well Tcherepnin, and pretty well, even privately, Honegger. Tcherepnin, of course, was the director of the Russian Conservatory in Paris, which was a horrific title. It was not easy for him in Paris at that time.

DPP: Were the classes taught in Russian or French?

RJ: In Russian. First of all, they used a different system. They used a treatise on harmony by Rimsky-Korsakov, which was quite a different approach from the French system, which was extremely academic and extremely arrhythmic. So I studied with him in harmony, composition at the Russian Conservatory, and also privately at the time — right behind St. Germain des Pres in Paris. He was married to his Chinese wife, he had three little kids. You know, one of his sons became a very well known music teacher at Harvard later on, Ivan.

DPP: Oh, yes. That's the one I heard of.

RJ: He was very tall and a very good pianist also.

DPP: I heard the son was, too.

RJ: The son? I don't know much about him. I know the father. Then, as I told you, I worked for a ballet made by Serge Lifar who was very well known.

DPP: very well known, yeah!

RJ: That was during the War Years. Somehow, thru my mother, which was a prime mover, etc. — somehow I got money put together a ballet on a Georgian theme. So Lifar was doing the choreography, Koncharova did the sets and Honegger, Tchrepenin and another composer (Tibor Hasanyi) were called to write the music which was going to be an entire evening and for some reason they decided to have one composer write for each different act. Three acts. Anyhow, my involvement, I got to be a musical assistant to Serge Lifar. At the time, his system for doing choreography, I don't think was done before and I don't think it was done after. Usually, as you well know, the choreographer will choose some music and then do the choreography. It was the other way around. He did the choreography first, and then the composer wrote the music.

DPP: What, would he sort of dance it for you and give you an idea?

RJ: That was correct. My first master was Nicholas Stein, was first, then me, together. Sometimes we alternated. He would tell me, for instance, when I was there, “OK, play something in three-times like this spirit” and play something, improvise something. “Nice. Not quite this indication; make it all lighter,” or maybe a little faster. (Then I would) play something.
“Is that OK?”
“That's OK. Now give me sixteen measures.”

I'll play sixteen measures....and then he did his choreography with that music. And later, when I wasn't improvising, I would write the score the number of measures, the tempi, and we had special accents to put the special accents, that type, and we'd read off the music. Then I would give this canvas to the composer and the composer would write the music on it; which I never understood how they could write good music like this. I think Tcherepnin was not happy with what he did anyhow.

So, Tcherepnin would come and look at what I had improvised and then they would go home and wrote their music — which I never heard, by the way.

DPP: Oh, really?

RJ: because it was confusing from what I had played to read what they did. So, a compliment — which I thought it was a compliment — was this long part I did. He said, he had been my teacher before, he said “If you don't mind, I want to use you what improvised here for the music.” And that's what he did for that passage.

So that's how I worked with Tcherepnin. Honegger was more reticent. I knew him less. We did the same with Honegger. He lived in a big studio on Place Clichy in Paris. Place Clichy and Pigalle is a very interesting part of Paris because, by day, it is very middle class, lower middle class, whatever; and, by night, it's all prostitutes, nightclubs and all these things. And they coexist quite happily! And that, for some reason, that's where all the dance studios were.

DPP: Oh, OK !!!

RJ: I thought the nightclubs, the dance studio, etc. We went into his big studio over there and worked.

One scene, in particular, stays in my mind. The dancer Ludmilla Chermina, which later on became a fairly well known star, movie star, and Raymond Audran, partner and husband. We were over there, and, I don't know exactly what happened but he had a big enough studio that they could be there with Lifar and, not really dance entirely, but do choreography. I don't know what happened. She seemed, to me, must have been, I don't know. But, anyhow, there was a big scene. She fell down. Serge was very annoyed at her and they had a big fight right there. Honegger had to moderate; try to separate everyone and calm everybody down — and I was in my corner, watching the whole thing.

Anyhow, that's how it went. Then, after that, Honegger, very kindly, looked at some of my compositions and told me: “OK, do this and that” ....bring it back, and, for a period of maybe, no more than, from the winter thru the summer, then he would advise me on things. I would bring him some things, he would give me corrections, tell me again, etc..... but the importance about this was not only what he actually did, but to be in contact with such a wonderful master of music was very, very uplifting at the time. Very uplifting; he was a very kind man.

DPP: I heard he was a good teacher, though, too.

RJ: Oh, yeah, a very good teacher and a very kind man.

DPP: What I was told from (Karel) Husa was that he could look at the music and focus in on you.

RJ: Yep! Oh, yeah!!!

DPP: that, you know, it's not just the music on the page. Honegger knew an A. You know, an A is an A, but if you wrote and I wrote it, the note doesn't change. But, YOU wrote it, so, he's focusing on what it means to you. He could bring that out and understand that, so, when he was correcting and advising, he knew what to say. Who did you actually study with in France, or, or...... well you were raised in France, though.

RJ: I was in Paris. In Paris I was at the Russian Conservatory and also at the Schola Cantorum where I had lessons for one year, because my main teacher at the Russian Conservatory was Nicholas Stein; a total crazy Russian. He was the type of person that when you come for your lesson, “Oooohhhkkk! I had to work all night, I can't see you this morning.” Maybe fourteen or so years later I understood that he had worked all night at getting drunk somewhere. Then there would be times when he would appear at 10:00 in the morning and the lesson would last until 10:00 at night. Everything went thru there. It was very uplifting, very....

DPP: What was it? Piano? Composition?

RJ: Piano, composition, etc..... I don't know, all kind of things. Cool jazz, Zen — Zen didn't exist, mean, it did exist we just didn't know about it then — but all kind of things. But he, himself, decided that I needed more vigorous training, so he sent me to the Schola Cantorum where I studied with a Mister Becker — nobody knows him — but he was one of these little men who taught “the rules.” So I did not like him too well but he was very useful.

DPP: Was it theoretical studies or were you already in Composition?

RJ: That was harmony. I was already in composition but they decided I needed more strictness in harmony and counterpoint. I didn't like it too much but I thought, hey, maybe I need all that stuff. It's difficult for me to be strict and precise within such narrow boundaries —

DPP: Well, that's how I felt back then, but now, I realize, ah —
RJ: — but that's what you need to —
DPP: — the boundaries are —
RJ: well, you need them — you can't run before you know how to walk!
DPP: but, you know, when you're young?
RJ: Well, that's true, so true.

DPP: When I asked you about Ibert, for example, if you knew him, was, at that same time as you in Paris — and he also worked with Serge Lifar — he was under house arrest during the Vichy government. Switzerland played Ibert; the Suisse Romande, but he couldn't be performed in Paris.

RJ: But I find in so amusing that they say Honegger was a Swiss. He was born in France, raised in L'Havre and spent in the Swiss Army maybe 2 years of his life.

DPP: but the books always say he's Swiss, you're right!

RJ: He's still officially Swiss. His father had a position there. When he (Honegger) was a student in Paris as a teenager he traveled by train once a week, then he became a full time student there.

DPP: He celebrated that train — Pacific 231

RJ: You know, that's a real interesting period. I remember it was the Mechanistic Age. There was Pacific 231; a piece by Mosolov called Steel Foundry.

DPP: I heard that piece!

DPP and RJ: That is a great piece!

RJ: There were a number of pieces at that time celebrating the machine age, so to speak. And in Dance there was a whole movement of people who imitated machines in dance movement, etc. In shows like Ballet Mechanique by —

DPP: Antheil - in which he used a huge propeller, which blew the music off the stands —

RJ: THAT WAS THIS PERIOD ! VERY INTERESTING !!!

DPP: and I did ask you, but I don't think you knew Poulenc?

RJ: only once in passing. He came from a wealthy family, his father having had a company that made aspirins and such things, so he was secure. But I tell you; he shared his money with the other Les Six members to help get things done for them. I played some of his music for rehearsals but I never worked with him.

DPP: his is the one music that's growing on me for some reason.

RJ: I like Poulenc. I like his music much more now than ever.

DPP: When I was younger, I just thought he wrote nice tunes and that was about it. Ah, but it's what you can do to a tune that makes it remarkable — that's where his genius lies.

RJ: Yes, that's so true.

DPP: Now, the next phase I was going to ask you about was about Boating. How did you get involved in Boating? You know, Debussy once said, if he had it all to do over again that he would have been a sailor — but he was still a landlubber.

RJ: I don't know why but I was always fascinated by boats ever since I was a young teenager, and, so, finally I did some sailing in France with some friend who had a boat in Boulogne — with the huge tides. When I came here I did more sailing and boat building out of my own personal interest.

DPP: Oh, you built boats?

RJ: I built boats also - Yeah! Including one here (he gets a model replica of it) — a 28 foot. That's a replica of a whaleboat that is here in Amagansett. The replica has the same lines, etc. These whale boats were used to hunt whales from the beach, when the whales were on the horizon. And that last whale caught off the beach in Amagansett was around 1912. They used to go to the whale, out. They would only go if they saw the whale up wind. They couldn't possibly have brought the whale in against the wind. Then they would cut and....

DPP: Everything. Blubber, oil....

RJ: Yes, so we still have it, quite awhile.....

DPP: And you built other boats, too, that you sold?

RJ: Oh sure, even to some little companies; kits and plans and finished boats over the past few years.

DPP: did you retire from that?

RJ: No, but I made a change. That was going on in a shop in Jersey City.

DPP: but you didn't live in New Jersey?

RJ: No — in Manhattan, or course, but it was convenient, with the Path train, I could get there in 20 minutes. Very convenient. Jersey City was nothing like it is now. There was time when I go to the Promenade on lower Manhattan, look across. When I was there which was, 1980s, it is hard to realize, the tallest thing was a clock.

DPP: Oh my God, I remember that clock!

RJ: Remember the clock? That was the tallest thing. I tell you something else, I went to Yale.

DPP: Oh you did?

RJ: for a PhD. I finished a —

DPP: — was that in music?

RJ: No, that was in Language and Linguistics. That's my other life. My different life.

DPP: When you told me you were hired to teach, what was it you were hired to teach?

RJ: No, no, wait a second. I taught in college for about 16 years. That job was in Hartford University (he is referring to University of Hartford in Connecticut — not the university of this name in Washington DC.) I was there from '68 to '76 or so, like this. Given tenure twice.

DPP: What were you teaching there?

RJ: Foreign Languages and General Linguistics.

DPP: Oh, OK.

RJ: OK. So I went to Yale, finished and went through my aurals — on a scholarship. It cost me nothing. I went four years; finished all the aurals, got to the dissertation. At that point, I couldn't stand words anymore. I nstead of my dissertation, I built myself a boat. Then, quit teaching, quit all that, then, OK, goodbye. That's how it was.

DPP: and you don't miss it, of course.

RJ: NO. But then, here, after some time when I was back here they asked me, from Southampton College — before they dismantled last year (e.g. that was in 2004) — they had a program called SEAMESTER. We'd usually take 25 students twice a year on a big schooner for three months at a time and go all the way to the Caribbean, to the Bahamas, Saint Thomas and on this schooner the students are on, of course, learn on vacation. They learn, mostly Marine Biology, very appropriate, but also Maritime History and Literature of the Sea. So I was teaching Maritime History and Literature of the Sea on that program.

DPP: Wow, man, that must have been fun?

RJ: It was FUN and I went about nine or ten times, but after that it was — you see a big schooner is very small. You are really right on top of each other, and you really are confined. I mean, even if the topsail is resting too long the rest of the time you sail, but after ten times, it was enough, but, during that time it was great fun.

DPP: You probably didn't do much writing of music though on the boat?

RJ: Of course not!

DPP: Oh, I was just wondering; I'm sure that you could if you were along.

RJ: I could have — you could do anything you want. So that was it.

DPP: You left South Hampton because the school closed or did you leave before that?

RJ: Oh no, no — because I couldn't take it anymore.

DPP: Did you ever think of staying on just to teach like an elective class, you know, on land?

RJ: No, no, no — I was not interested. Most people who taught on this thing with me, maybe went five or six times and then had enough.

DPP: I am sure it was a trip though? Still!

RJ: In the fourth semester, we would take usually from Boston because we had, every two years where the State of Massachusetts had a good schooner. From Boston and end up in the Dominican Republic. In the Spring semester, we would usually fly over to the Island of Saint Thomas, get on the boat there and wind up in Greenport.

DPP: No kidding? Wow, that's great.

RJ: That was great fun for a longtime.

DPP: Yeah, sure sounds like fun to me. If I'd known about that, I might've gone to the school for that.

RJ: Hey, they still want people to teach. They're always looking for people to teach because no body stays more than a few times. It's great fun the first few times and after that you become too constricted.

DPP: Are they doing this SEAMESTER thru another organization if the school's gone?

RJ: Last time I saw them they were trying to find another organization to sponsor it, but they were talking, maybe — I saw them all last May (e.g. 2005), they came over here — they were looking for, either C.W.Post might do it, or Stony Brook. But I don't know what happened.

DPP: Stony Brook would make sense 'cause if the proximity, but Post could do it, too.

RJ: But I don't know what happened; all I know that didn't do anything at this time but maybe they'll revive it at a later time.

DPP: I was a great program.

RJ: Everyone had great fun. They may even have learned something!

DPP: I'm sure they did, though — how to run a boat.

RJ: If nothing else. I want to thank you for coming today.

DPP: It was my pleasure.